Hi Lionel!
I think I am like you in that I see the Bible as very important. As Paul says, it has all the information for salvation. Of course Paul reminds Timothy that it is breathed out by God.

As a result I also have a question about your use of Scripture to back up the idea of the Bible being alive.

Surely the quote from the Psalm, although indirectly perhaps a ref to the written word, is better seen as a reference to God’s life giving Word such as that spoken at creation (John 1 would cause us to see this as Jesus).

The quote from Hebrews I would have thought was also better attributed to Jesus, especially in the light of Hebrews 1:12 (and the rest of the 1st 3 chapters).

I personally cannot think of a Scripture reference where the Bible refers to itself explicitly as being alive. I would love to know if you can point me in the direction of one?

Cheers!

Thanks for that Lionel. I can see that context is what is driving your conclusion. Yet I reach a different conclusion about the context for both passages. For brevity I will deal just with Hebrews 4:12.

The application of the exposition of the Psalm in Hebrews does go from 3:7-4:11, but you have not addressed the writer’s reason for the exposition. From the beginning of Hebrews the writer is telling us why Jesus is a greater revelation than Scripture (clearly stating his intent in 1:1-2).

Hebrews 3 starts by telling us how Jesus is greater than Moses (3:5-6). This gives us greater reason to be stronger in our faith than the forefathers whose hearts were hardened (3:7-15). Hebrews 3:19 makes it clear that the forefathers failed because of a lack of faith…not because of law (C.f. Romans 4 & Genesis 15:6). Scripture testifies that obedience comes through faith, and so faith is of greatest importance.

The purpose of the exposition has little to do with law or Scripture, but rather faith. The writer urges us to have that faith in Jesus (4:2), and so the context we have leading up to 4:12 where the Word is mentioned is Jesus – the Gospel!

The truth of the Gospel is found in the Bible, but the Gospel is the person of Jesus Christ. I know you have said you would not want to separate the Bible and Jesus, but I think it is important to, as Jesus himself saw it as important in John 5:38-39,

“Nor does his Word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have eternal life.”

In these verses Jesus distinguishes between himself and the Scriptures.

Please note I do not seek to undermine the Bible, but rather use it as it was intended, to point to Jesus and what God has done through him. Dave

Hi again Lionel.
In regards to your use of Psalm 119:25 & 40 in your post I think it important to note that these verses do not refer to the Word (be it Written, Creational or Christological) as alive. Rather that the Psalmist might have life according to God’s Word (v. 25), and that the Psalmist might have life through God’s righteousness (v. 40).

I appreciate your understanding of the context of these verses, but as with Hebrews 4:12, I fail to see these verses as a reference to the Bible/Scripture. Both of the verses are references to God’s salvation that will teach the Psalmist to obey God’s commands. Whether or not the Psalmist has the Messiah in mind I do not know, but I think it is important from our perspective to view this as ultimately fulfilled for us (and the Psalmist) in Christ, the living Word.

In the passage, vv. 25-32, we see that vv. 26-32 are a response to God’s ability to save (renew) in v. 25. Once again, as with Hebrews 4 we are reminded that faith in the God who saves brings obedience – a desire to follow God’s commands. The Psalmist has a written record of God’s ability to save and His promises to save in his ultra-slim version of the OT (at that time!), as well as a living relationship with the living God who has created him (by His Word. Note ref. to dust in v. 25) and will save him (through His Word). This is what creates the desire within him to follow the commands, statutes, precepts etc. It is not a matter of the laws, precepts, statutes etc being alive, or for that matter being able to save him (because he cannot keep them) or give him life (C.f. Romans 3:27-28).

In vv. 33-40, the Psalmist recognises that God’s commands are good, but wants (needs) God to teach him how to keep them (C.f. Psalm 119:176 – he cannot keep them!). The Psalmist asks God to renew his life in His righteousness (something God ultimately does through the promised Messiah – Jesus, who is the ultimate revelation of God’s righteousness, being God himself).

As I said in my first comment, I would love to know if there are any references by Scripture to Scripture being alive. I would love to read your response to my comments, but promise to now be quiet!
Dave

Dear Lionel, I have broken my promise of silence – sorry! Also, (dear readers) please not that my last comment was written before Lionel’s comment yesterday was posted.

In response to your comment yesterday.

To clarify – I believe the Bible is the word of God, written. I believe the whole purpose of Hebrews 1-4 is to show the difference between the OT revelation of the ‘word’ and Jesus – Jesus is the greater revelation. Why? Because in Jesus, God is His ‘Word’. You would appear to agree with me, as you have said that:

“The overall purpose of Hebrews 1-4 is to show that Jesus is greater - a greater word, and a greater Son.” (I am not sure what you mean by the greater Son. The Bible is not a son of God)

“Hebrews 1:2 is certainly talking about Jesus, and so it is right to call him the word of God.”

“Furthermore, I agree that Jesus has ontological priority as God’s word - he is the Word before the Bible is the Word (cf. John 1:1).” (And also after!)

“I also agree that the Gospel has logical priority as the centre of God’s word.”

“Of course, the wider import of the argument in Hebrews is that the Bible points to Jesus, God’s greater and primary word.”

I do not understand how you then come to the conclusions,

“And it is the Bible which is the basic and primary referent of the phrase “Word of God” in Hebrews 4:12.”

“The Bible is not independent of Jesus, but it is still God’s living and life-giving word. And this is what Hebrews 4:12 is saying.”

I do not follow your exegesis. You refer to ‘all’ the references to God speaking in Heb1:1-4:11, but leave out Heb1:2! It is here that the author introduces his argument.

C.f. Heb 4:13-16. The context is Jesus. Also, the Bible tells us that God is the judge, and the NT tells us that Jesus is the judge, and Heb 4:12 tells us that the Word judges. The Bible and/or the law do not judge. They might at points condemn (C.f. Romans 7:10), but they do not judge because they do not know the thoughts and attitudes of our hearts. The description of Heb 4:12 fits Jesus, not Scripture.

I also query your assertions at the end of your comment.

“But the point in both Hebrews 3:19 and John 5:38-39 is that faith in Jesus comes through the Scriptures. You must read the Bible, for it is God’s life-giving word.”

Neither of these passages say that faith in Jesus comes through the scriptures, though the Scriptures are one way we can find out about Jesus (C.f. 2 Tim 3:15, Romans 10:14-15). I know that faith does not come through Scripture, because Abraham had faith, and he lived a long time before even the KJV! Faith comes from God - just ask Calvin! As you said yourself, “Hence, if the Bible is just read with no reference to faith in Jesus, then it is not being read according to God’s life-giving Spirit, and so it is no use.”

In response to you comment today.

You said,
“You are trying to use the general “vibe” and purpose of Hebrews 1-4 to trump the clear reading of Hebrews 4:12 in its context.”

No, I am not. I am trying to understand Hebrews 4:12 in context. I am not trying to trump anything, but rather understand the Bible. At the same time, I think the general “vibe” has a lot to do with the context!

You said,
“the author never contrasts the Son with Scripture.”

Yes he does – Hebrews 1:1-2, 5-13, 2:6-8.

You said.
“Of course the Scripture has no independent life of its own.”

I completely agree – but also note that this is a change in position to what lead me to comment originally when you said the following.

“We can’t bring the Bible alive; it is far more alive that we are.”

“The Bible doesn’t need to be brought alive through anything.”

“The Bible is not independent of Jesus, but it is still God’s living and life-giving word.”

Kind Regards
Dave

Lionel & Dave,

In relation to the question “what is the natural meaning of the word ‘Word’” - my answer is no to both propositions made so far. 
I do not think it refers to written scripture (the bible) or to the person Jesus of Nazareth.  Both of these perspectives are theological back-projections, and are second guessing what the original writer had crafted.

I suggest wrestling with the original language to discern a way forward, as the English translation is a crude imitation of the original that leads to many interpretative issues.  Many of the subtleties, ambiguitites and nuances are lost to us.

My understanding of the term ‘word’ here is a more generic reference to the ‘mind’ or ‘will’ or ‘desire’ or ‘intent’ of God to draw close to humanity.  Reference to the written law and commandments as given to Moses is part of the equation only.  The Psalm is a joyful outpouring of the desire of God to enjoin with his people (and visa-versa), and this is expressed with a variety of words with a varierty of allusions and images.

In this way, this text is a case in point exemplifying changes occurring during this period in history - God was moving beyond a tribal deity to a divine ‘ever-presence’ intimately invovled in all our affairs.  I don’t think we should be using it to build a theological argument for authority of the bible as the inspired word of God.

Cheers.

PS - I totally agree Lionel that scripture is alive with story and message.  We do need to be careful about the language we use.