Why Johnny can’t preach (Part 1) Peter Sholl

Dianne Howard18/06/2009 03:06 AM

Out with postmodernism! Bring back truth and logical thought!

Di

Hi Di,

Give or take, thats what he says in the book. I’m not sure he thinks truth is on the ‘out’ - just that it is getting shoved into ridiculously short soundbytes, rather than being carefully explained or analysed.

More on that in the next installment!

Dianne Howard18/06/2009 04:09 AM

Thanks for this post Pete.

I think it is a really serious and relevant issue.
Over recent years I have observed three children getting ‘educated’ in a postmodern school system!!

Di

I’ve heard some good things about this book, and I’m looking forward to this series.

However…

I’m a little wary of the whole “people can only consume sound-bites” sort of argument. These sorts of things always feel like they are harking back to a supposed golden age, when everyone was intelligent and literate, had read Homer, Cicero and Calvin, and was able to listen to a 3 hour doctrinaire sermon, then recite the contents back verbatim.

I just don’t believe this golden age ever existed. Or if it did, it was only ever amongst a nice, clean upper middle class.

Dianne Howard18/06/2009 05:03 AM

From ABC News Oct 2008…
<em>The National Curriculum Board has proposed traditional English and grammar lessons be reinstated in school classrooms to address a deterioration in writing skills.

The recommendation comes after complaints from universities and business that students lack the most basic knowledge.

The board has responded to concerns that students have been graduating without the ability to correctly form sentences, and lacking an understanding of nouns, verbs and adjectives.<em>

I’d say comprehension skills have been in major decline in recent times. From a Christian perspective this has serious implications for people’s ability to read and understand the intended meaning of such texts as the Bible.

Di

Dianne Howard18/06/2009 05:15 AM

Is editing possible? Poor computer literacy skills on display in my last comment!!

Don’t worry about it Dianne - I lost concentration after the first paragraph…...

Seriously - the point you raise is exactly the point he is making. What we will find in later chapters is that his recommendation for ‘pre-seminary’ training is an undergraduate degree in literature.

Craig,

He’s not wanting us to go back to 3 hr sermons being repeated verbatim. He is simply arguing that we need to work harder at developing a longer concentration span because that is what is needed for the processing and understanding of complicated issues.

One of the facts that is listed in the book is the average length of sound bytes broadcast by ‘the networks’ of campaigning presidential candidates in the US. In 1968 it was 42.3 seconds and in 1988 it was 9.8 seconds. In 2000 it was 7.8 seconds. He says

“we are swamped by the inconsequential, bombarded by images and sounds that rob us of the opportunity for reflection and contemplation that are necessary to reacquaint ourselves with what is significant.” (p58)

Its a good question that he asks following this observation. “What kinds of ministers does such a culture produce?”

Dianne Howard18/06/2009 06:32 AM

lol…‘focused attention’ please! (the information processing model or as I call it - the computer brain model!- the latest in learning theory!!)

Perhaps Bible Colleges should spend one year of ‘english/literature’ in first year. I actually think this is a serious need considering current education and would have great benefit for many students.

I think low literacy skills scares some students from tackling the demands of places such as Moore. I think it is a genuine concern.

Really looking forward to your next posts.
Di

<i>He is simply arguing that we need to work harder at developing a longer concentration span </i>

But how does the preacher taking additional study develop a longer concentration span in his audience?

And say a preacher does manage (somehow) to “de-post-modernise” his congregation - how then does he, and they, communicate to the outside world who are still post-modern?

I don’t agree with the ‘aliteracy’ premise either.  Literacy has levels, and yes, good preaching requires university-level literacy in the preacher.  My 8yo is learning literacy in a far more logical way than I did at the same age.  That doesn’t mean that his class will all end up with high-level literacy, though the possibility is there for those with the native ability.

From personal experience only, I suggest that poor preaching derives from:
1) Fading belief
2) Fatigue in the preacher—writing a good sermon is hard work, and overwork or personal problems will affect it adversely
3) Underestimating the congregation and giving them a milk-only diet.  If you never give them meat, you don’t give them a chance to grow.

It’s also worth remembering that it’s not just our preachers who need to work hard. Listening well involves hard work and there are plenty of lazy listeners in church (myself often included). If we come away from church thinking “I didn’t get much out of the sermon today” we should not automatically assume the problem does not lie with ourselves.

Craig, Nick,

I agree this is not only an issue that the preacher needs to address in himself. I think we need to be thinking about how we can raise the issue of careful thinking and literary appreciation in our congregations.

Here´s some ways I have seen it done.

- modelling careful thought and ´textual appreciation´in the way we preach. Sometimes the temptation in the sermon is to give the answer without showing the working. That is, we can quickly jump to where the rubber hits the road without taking the listener through the process of thinking about the text, analysing the argument and coming to a useful conclusion. Sermons don´t just teach the main point, they teach us how to think as well.

- the same can be said for the way we run Bible study. Writing studies that engage carefully with the text and encourage careful thinking really helps, rather than looking for the quick answer.

- encouraging reading through a book club or discussion group.

- recommending books, having book reviews at church. I have a couple of books on order because I was encouraged to read them in a sermon I was listening to!

- Maybe we just need to be ecouraging people to read more - whether it be books or Briefing articles or whatever. Just get people reading!

Hi Ellen (cluck!!)

I certainly agree with your points about poor preaching. I don’t think Gordon is suggesting that increasing literacy is the one big answer to making sermons brilliant - in fact we have a few chapters to go so we’ll see what else he comes up with.

Just to clarify - Gordon talking about society being ‘aliterate’ not ‘illiterate’ (gee I hope I got the spelling of those correct!) In a nutshell, the difference is that illiterate is an inability to read, whereas aliterate is being able to read, but choosing not to.

I’m glad your 8yo is ahead of where you were at the same stage - I think my kids are the same. However the question is, as he grows up will he choose to use those literacy skills in a careful and critical way engaging with long and complicated texts and arguments, or be satisfied with MSN and soundbytes?

Thanks Peter, I’m looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts. The White Horse Inn have done an interview with the author, very interesting.

Hi Peter

Thanks for the review (part i). Looking forward to the future installments.

The discussion thus far reminds me somewhat of Neil Postman’s point in Amusing Ourselves to Death. He contrasted the dystopian visions of Orwell’s 1984, where a totalitarian state enslaved its populace through thought-control, and Huxley’s Brave New World, where the populous gladly enslaved itself in meaningless diversions like the ‘Feelies’ and the ‘Centrifgual Bumblepuppy’ (if memory serves).

Postman’s thesis was that Huxley’s vision turned out to be the more accurate. Sounds like Gordon is taking a similar line, and it’s hard to disagree.

It also strikes me that preaching is an inherently literate activity in that it involves a careful, curious, humble reading of the text, a critical reading of the thoughts of others, the ability to analyse and synthesize all these ideas, and then the wit to formulate a coherent argument and communicate it compellingly to others.

TP

Peter,

“Sermons don´t just teach the main point, they teach us how to think as well.”

Amen to that. John Piper hit this point home very hard in his sermon and panel comments at the recent Gospel Coalition conference.

I agree that encouraging people to read good material is a great thing to do. Also, courses like PTC and such - biblical theology is not just for preachers in my opinion. smile

Hey Peter.  Thanks for the thought-provoking post and thanks to everyone else for your interesting comments!

Tony - you’re spot on with your recollections re Neil Postman.  Here’s what he wrote in the foreword to “Amusing Ourselves to Death”:  “... in Huxley’s vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history.  As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think… Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information.  Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism.  Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us.  Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.  Orwell feared we would become a captive culture.  Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture…”

Neil Postman wrote this 23 years ago!

I wish I could remember who recently said this, but one wise person has described our current culture as ‘much-informed rather than well-informed’.  I think this ties in with the idea of ‘aliteracy’, Peter.

In my own experience, one of the finest communication methods is love - if the teacher (literature or Bible) has a deep love for what they teach, the effectiveness of their teaching is greatly enhanced.

Looking forward to more, Peter.

Hey Pete, I found this book pretty sobering. Even if people don’t agree with the force of the critique (it’s pretty bleak) I think it’s the kind of thing most preachers (even the really good ones) should read.
In particular it’s helped me to think again over what I might be subjecting people to each week.
I do agree significant responsibility is on the listener when it comes to sermons….but sometimes a real kick in the guts from those who’ve done a lot of listening over the years is good for us.
My question is how do you give a book like this to your minister without him taking it the wrong way?
Oh well, don’t be shy, give it to him anyway!

Hi Marcus,

I agree that the review he gives of the general state of preaching is pretty sobering, but unfortunately my (short) experience here in North America (USA + Mexico) is that it is pretty accurate. In the second installment (which is coming up soon) he talks about the poor use of the Bible and of sermons becoming ‘generalised’ and ‘all the same’ because the text isn’t carefully engaged with. That is a common experience here.

How to give it to your minister? Good question. I think it should be given in a spirit of care and love - not as a stick to say ‘I told you so’, but as an encouragement to say ‘we think the work you are doing is so important and we want to encourage you in it.’

By the way - everyone - its a short, easy book to read. I started it while waiting for a plane to Mexico City (from Monterrey) and was finished by the time we were descending through the smog! (1:30 later) But then again, maybe I was just reading for information!

A great book. Problem is, Gordon assumes that preaching in and of itself is a good method (he offers no evidence). He then goes on to assume that it doesn’t work because preachers do it poorly. I disagree.

Preaching is nothing more than a glorified lecture with a religious title. Though there are times when lecturing can be used effectively, it is a poor method for recreating thought processes. It isn’t even good for memory enhancement.

Hi Randy,

You are right in saying that Gordon assumes that preaching is in itself a good method (although largely done badly). He does make several passing references to his Presbyterian confessional background and uses that as a ‘foundation’ as to why preaching is an effective and worthy method of expressing God’s word to his people.

I suppose it also undergirds the whole thesis of the book. If he didn’t think preaching was a useful method, then there wouldn’t be any need for it to improve.

However I guess a discussion of whether or not preaching in itself is an effective method is beyond the scope of what he is saying.

There are plenty of good books that discuss that question. eg: ‘When God’s voice is heard’
(Stott, Carson, Retief, Packer and others, IVP, 2003)

Commenting rules

If you would like your comment to be considered for publication, please observe the following rules:

  1. Please use your FULL NAME (your real name, not an alias).
  2. Stay on topic.
  3. Be godly.

Failure to adhere to these rules will result in your comment being quietly deleted.

If you want to give us feedback but don't want your comments to appear on the blog, DON'T use the form below. Instead, please send us an email or click on the button below.

Your Comment

Commenting is not available in this weblog entry.
The Archer and the Arrow

Sponsors

Placeholder

Recent comments

RSS logo

Stephen Jackson on The Sola Panel is dead; long live the Sola Panel!

Sam Freney on The Sola Panel is dead; long live the Sola Panel!

Marty Foord on The Sola Panel is dead; long live the Sola Panel!

Dianne Howard on The Sola Panel is dead; long live the Sola Panel!

Mike Bull on Daniel 2-7, Harry Potter and Narnia

Current discussions

RSS logo

Recent posts

RSS logo RSS logo

The Sola Panel is dead; long live the Sola Panel! by Tony Payne (4 comments). Regular Sola Panel readers will no doubt have detected a little slowness and quietness over the past six weeks or so. … more

Kids’ culture watch spot: Facing fear by Gordon Cheng (3 comments). By popular demand (two people asked), here is my next script for a culture watch spot I did with the kids … more

Daniel 2-7, Harry Potter and Narnia by Gordon Cheng (1 comment). It's a Sunday as I write this, and I'm speaking on Daniel 2 and 7 later this morning at a friend's … more

A constituent on same-sex marriage by Sandy Grant (34 comments). Last year, the Australian Parliament agreed that its Members of Parliament (MPs) should seek the … more

A tribute to John Stott by Sandy Grant (2 comments). Friends, I'm not ashamed to say I shed a tear when I opened up my computer on Thursday morning to read … more

Talkin’ ’bout my generation (part 3): On giants’ shoulders by Scott Newling (26 comments). This is the third post in this series; you can read part one, and more

Bible reading with kids by Sandy Grant (0 comments). I was asked for recommendations for resources that would encourage parents to read the Bible with their kids, especially … more

Talkin’ ’bout my generation (part 2): Stepping aside (not out) so others can step up (not in) by Scott Newling (3 comments). This is the second post in this series; you can read the first post, Unassuming … more

One more sip of the coffee by Tony Payne (8 comments). Sandy Grant is a man of integrity. Back in the early days of Sola Panel, I wrote a post … more

Talkin’ ’bout my generation (part 1): Unassuming generations by Scott Newling (30 comments). There is a model of ‘intergenerational theological decline’ that has been doing the rounds of late, and perhaps you … more

Tony Payne

Tony Payne

Paul is one of the Staff Editors at Matthias Media. He is married to Cathy and has three fantastic kids. He loves student ministry, reading, writing music and playing the saxophone, and is looking forward to meeting Jesus face to face.

Sola Panellists



Some other sites
we like  (Why these?)

Ministry partners